1:35 PM - Captain Redhair: you can't play LoL and Dota2~ *not serious*
1:35 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: I'm a veteran of both, heh. Dota for several years and League for about 2.
1:38 PM - Captain Redhair: can we talk about dota 2  a bit~
1:38 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Sure.
1:38 PM - Captain Redhair: What do you think of Lina (My favorite hero) she isn't the *usual tier support* , but more of a 4th role
1:38 PM - Captain Redhair: like not a rubick or shadow demon
1:39 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: She's a good tri lane option
1:39 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: But beyond that not much use in the meta.
1:39 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: She has a single stun and her abilities mid game are only good if she has levels.
1:39 PM - Captain Redhair: hmm
1:43 PM - Captain Redhair: Like.. my build might be.. stupid but I build her as a double edge knige couple with precise heroes composition.
1:43 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And your build is?
1:44 PM - Captain Redhair: http://dotabuff.com/players/54546687/matches?hero=lina&game_mode=&match_type=real
1:44 PM - Captain Redhair: I think you can see a corelation
1:44 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Bloodstone boots of travel
1:45 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Relies on a good early game otherwise you delay your usefulness mid game
1:45 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: As both are costly items.
1:45 PM - Captain Redhair: thats why I said I rely on 1st heroes in my team
1:45 PM - Captain Redhair: 2nd friends lol
1:45 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: The desolater is alright, but scyth would be better with the disable if you're going to save up that much.,
1:45 PM - Captain Redhair: 3rd 250 gpm is enough so with pushes and ganks and tp I always carry
1:45 PM - Captain Redhair: i know I know
1:46 PM - Captain Redhair: but this constant DPS and for the carry is quite important
1:46 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: The carry or someone more suited to doing damage would scale better with desolater.
1:46 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You're forgoing your sub role as a support by not picking up crucial team items like FS and Scyth which teams typically rely on Lina to pick up.
1:47 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Medallion is alright, and later on a ghost scepter is fine too.
1:47 PM - Captain Redhair: which is why I pick her a a 4th role. and only in precise lineup
1:47 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: So what ypou're saying is if you can't play her as intended you don't play her at all.
1:47 PM - Captain Redhair: Else I go like jakiro, rubick and such
1:47 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Rather narrow thinking.
1:48 PM - Captain Redhair: I tried a lot of builds
1:48 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You're also forgoing the max she's capable of doing as a support.
1:48 PM - Captain Redhair: such as?
1:49 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: making a Lina a carry or semi-carry is akin to trying to make Vengeful spirit or Omniknight carry. No matter what you do, it's going to do pretty shitty.
1:49 PM - Captain Redhair: its not a carry
1:49 PM - Captain Redhair: theres nothing carry in this shit
1:49 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You're picking up carry items.
1:49 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Deso, HotD, Assault Cuiress, MB
1:49 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: MKB*
1:49 PM - Captain Redhair: look at that game
1:49 PM - Captain Redhair: withthe MKB
1:49 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Daedalus
1:49 PM - Captain Redhair: you'll see why
1:50 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You're getting kills as a support.
1:50 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Which you should instead be giving to your carry.
1:51 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Except for 1 game, you do not have a hard difference in your K/D's, which, if you build carry items, you should be looking for.
1:51 PM - Captain Redhair: and what *items* should i be looking for th en
1:51 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Force Staff, Scyth, Orchid, things that add to your list of disables  and general utility to your team.
1:52 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You'll still do damage thanks to your passive and ult, but not you're a much greater force in team fights.
1:52 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And ganks.
1:52 PM - Captain Redhair: Are you sure
1:52 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: now*, not not.
1:52 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: I've been playing this game for six years.
1:52 PM - Captain Redhair: I tried a lot of builds.. its just.. I dont know..
1:53 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: In a precise lineup, anything can work, but they way you're trying it you're meeting -some- success. Not a lot, which you should be aiming for with this aggressive attack style build.
1:54 PM - Captain Redhair: I dont see the point
1:54 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: When you build carry items, you're trying to kill things rather then disable them. You already have semi carries and carries to do that on your team.
1:55 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: The thing is teams need to balance Damage with crowd control
1:55 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Lina is a potent at dealing a mixture, but late game where the balance of your team's damage and crowd control is crucial, she falls off tremendously in damage when compared to the likes of real semi carries and carries.
1:56 PM - Captain Redhair: hmm..
1:56 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: That's why she needs to build as a support with crowd control items so that she can even out the teams balance of damage and CC. She does a much better job at CC'ing and gaining benefits from building CC items such as FS, Scyth and Orchid then semi-carries or carries.
1:57 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: She scales better with them, so to speak, since your team will eventually need those items built to help out late game.
1:58 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: To emphasize my point, a team with a balanced mixture of damage and crowd control with win against a team that has too much damage(such as your line) and not enough crowd control.
1:58 PM - Captain Redhair: like its like with my ideas of gyro building E
1:58 PM - Captain Redhair: people say it sucks early, pro uses it
1:58 PM - Captain Redhair: now its good
1:58 PM - Captain Redhair: I mean, I try to see something else.. I know
1:58 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Gyro's E is used by pros in competiive settings.
1:59 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Never assume that what works in Comepetive settings will work in pubs.
1:59 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Because in pro team their entire team is BUILT around Gyro's E and maximizing it, that's why people see it do good.
1:59 PM - Captain Redhair: I said that I sugested this before they start using it in pros
1:59 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: In pubs, that team working it around a Gyro doesn't happen.
1:59 PM - Captain Redhair: people said bad idea. Now some do use it
2:00 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You need a team compisiton based around Flak cannon for it to do good.
2:00 PM - Captain Redhair: so then my build is bad as shit
2:00 PM - Captain Redhair: thats what you mean
2:00 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: No, I'm saying it won't work UNLESS put in the right situation.
2:01 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Which 80% of the time doesn't happen.
2:01 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Where in pro's match they make it happen 100% of the time
2:01 PM - Captain Redhair: if I wont be using it, I wont pick Lina, I would rather pick Jakiro, rubick, shadow demon..
2:01 PM - Captain Redhair: she's more of a tier 2 support.
2:01 PM - Captain Redhair: compare to these i just said
2:01 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Tier's can mean jack shit when it comes down to the nit and grit of pubs.
2:02 PM - Captain Redhair: I know..
2:02 PM - Captain Redhair: I just did so much good work witht hat build.. its hard to convice people sometimes..
2:02 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: The reason Lina is tier 2 right now is because of tri-lanes, not dual or mid lanes.
2:02 PM - Captain Redhair: yup
2:02 PM - Captain Redhair: so you say she would be better with like Phase, force, Urn?
2:02 PM - Captain Redhair: or Mana, force
2:03 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: It depends if your team needs an arcane, if someone hasn't picked up an urn or a force staff yet
2:03 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Urn is a kind of meh choice since it can fall off mid game, but it's good if you have an early game ganking advantage
2:04 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Mid game is when you should focus on killing people with Lina, but after that you build crowd control and utility
2:04 PM - Captain Redhair: hmm..
2:05 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Rather then trying to continue to build DPS items like Desolater, which would work much better if picked up on a semi carry such as BH
2:05 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You only really need one desolater per team, same with scyth or Orchid
2:05 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: It's better to give those items to people who maximize their benefits
2:05 PM - Captain Redhair: so whats her E about then
2:05 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Lina can do good with Deso, but she's not the best with it.
2:05 PM - Captain Redhair: once you done your wombo combo
2:06 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: E gives her a little extra presence in the late game with fast auto attacks and a quick mobility to escape after her combo
2:06 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: But with orchid, scyth and FS you'll being doing decent damage because of your int.
2:06 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: In addition to that you;ll have a hex, a silence and a movement alterer.
2:07 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You should generally always go orchid over deso on lina.
2:07 PM - Captain Redhair: yeah and then you have 800 hp
2:07 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Deso provides no HP.
2:07 PM - Captain Redhair: at 20 min mark
2:08 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Let's compare
2:08 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Deso to Orchid on Lina
2:08 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Orchid Provides: 150% mana regen, +25 Intelligence, +30 damage, + 30 attack speed, which totals out to 55+ damage for line and an active silence that increases damage taken from you and your ult.
2:08 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Deso\
2:09 PM - Captain Redhair: its not only for me,.. that -armor if for my team too..
2:10 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: For nearly about the same cost, deso gives +60 damage, no mana regen, no attack speed, no active and only -6 armor
2:10 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Tell me which one does better on Lina.
2:10 PM - Captain Redhair: -7 armor
2:10 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Tell me.
2:11 PM - Captain Redhair: it gives.. -armor for your carry too and it workswell with her E.. but I usuly.. Man I dont know how to build her
2:11 PM - Captain Redhair: if I do your buil I will fail
2:11 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You havn't done my build.
2:11 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: -armor that should go tot he carry
2:11 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Or the semi carry
2:11 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: That's why the semi carry builds it/
2:11 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Not you.
2:11 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You benefit about 100% more from orchid then you do deso.
2:12 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And I can garentee you a Lina with an Orchid will easily help their team out more AND do more damage to an enemy then a Lina with a deso.
2:12 PM - Captain Redhair: but the -13 armor is good for your team too...
2:12 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: It is.
2:13 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: But you're not the right one to carry it.
2:13 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Whoi would benefit more from doing -13 armor to the enemy? Someone with high physical damage like a semi carry such as Bounty Hunter or night stalker
2:13 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Or a squishy nuker with weak auto attacks like Lina?
2:14 PM - Captain Redhair: YOUR TEAM USES IT TOO LOL
2:14 PM - Captain Redhair: Dragon knight will love it
2:14 PM - Captain Redhair: gyro will too,
2:14 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: If he loves it
2:14 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: He will build it
2:14 PM - Captain Redhair: luna, void, am.
2:14 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You're still a horrendous person for you to build it.
2:14 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: By having Bounty Hunter or Nightstalker build it, your team still gets the benfit
2:15 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: The only difference?
2:15 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You're not the one that applies it. IT's still there teamwise.
2:15 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: By NOT getting deso, you free yourself up to getting more important items that actually help YOU, and in turn your team MORE.
2:16 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Orchid with it's silence./
2:16 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Scyth with it's hex.
2:16 PM - Captain Redhair: what about bloostone
2:16 PM - Captain Redhair: useless too if I can't use deso and medaillon
2:16 PM - Captain Redhair: My plan is to be a double edge knife. but oh well
2:16 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You don't want to be double edge, you want to be a single edge to benefit the team the most
2:16 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Bloodstone is alright, at best.
2:17 PM - Captain Redhair: no it's not!
2:17 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Instead of getting blood stone, you can easily get Rod of Atos for 100 gold cheaper and a force staff
2:17 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: 1000*
2:17 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Which comes in with a very powerful active as well.
2:17 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: It solves your squishy problem by giving you an escape mechanism and +350 hp.
2:18 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: While the intelligence helps your mana problems./
2:18 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: All for 1000 gold cheaper.
2:18 PM - Captain Redhair: are you sure ?
2:18 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Very sure.
2:19 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Blood stone gives you mana and health, but if you build support the item becomes redundent since you get mana and health from your follow up items, such as Force Staff, Scyth, Orchid and Atos
2:19 PM - Captain Redhair: Idk man
2:19 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Not only that, it's much cheaper to go with the build I'm, saying.
2:19 PM - Captain Redhair: I tended to build Tranquil on lina before
2:20 PM - Captain Redhair: whats your oppinion on that
2:20 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: It's good if you need a 6th slot item.
2:20 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Makes you tanky as hell.
2:20 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: But most games won't go on long enough for you to get it.
2:21 PM - Captain Redhair: Man you're weird
2:21 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: I've been playing this game for 6 years, I've watched over 50 tournaments from start to finish, I've played easily over 800 games.
2:21 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: I speak from experiance.
2:22 PM - Captain Redhair: so like what
2:22 PM - Captain Redhair: I get arcanes and a force staff?
2:23 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Force staff or Atos
2:23 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Depends
2:23 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And your boots can vary as well depending on what your team already has
2:24 PM - Captain Redhair: but then with my Lina build
2:24 PM - Captain Redhair: by the time I get a soul booster
2:24 PM - Captain Redhair: We tend to be extremely pushing and ganking
2:24 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: By the time you get soul booster you would already have boots and rod of atos
2:24 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Which helps you gank and do just about the same thing
2:25 PM - Captain Redhair: 3300 gold
2:25 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Atos is 3100
2:25 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: 200 gold chea[pre
2:25 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: get 250 from starting and you have boots to
2:26 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You only lose 100 hp and gain +50 mana and an active escape/chasing tool for 200 gold less.
2:27 PM - Captain Redhair: you say I should keep normal boots?
2:28 PM - Captain Redhair: I knwo it depends on the game
2:28 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You have a better chance of reaching tier 2 boots with Atos then you do soul booster
2:28 PM - Captain Redhair: well I get soul booster from arcanes
2:28 PM - Captain Redhair: lol
2:29 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Which leads you at tier 1 boots and an increase in cost by about 200.
2:29 PM - Captain Redhair: is tranquil as a first item a good choice then
2:29 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: It can be if you plan on being aggresive.
2:29 PM - Captain Redhair: I do
2:29 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Roaming and ganking early, as such.
2:30 PM - Captain Redhair: carrying toilet paper
2:30 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: The only exchange is that you need to conserve your mana wisely and pull off good ganks.
2:30 PM - Captain Redhair: well if I do like..
2:30 PM - Captain Redhair: tranquil + atos + sheep
2:30 PM - Captain Redhair: with wards and tp
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: That works
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You get your tankyness
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You have two escape mechanisms, plenty of mana
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Two disables as well
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And you get around +70 damage from the int
2:31 PM - Captain Redhair is now Offline.
2:31 PM - Your state is set to Offline.
2:31 PM - Lost connection to Steam, will rejoin chat automatically when connection regained.
2:32 PM - Connected again and rejoined chat.
2:32 PM - Captain Redhair is now Online.
2:32 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: 2:30 PM - Captain Redhair: with wards and tp
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: That works
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You get your tankyness
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You have two escape mechanisms, plenty of mana
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Two disables as well
2:31 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And you get around +70 damage from the int
2:32 PM - Captain Redhair: +60*
2:33 PM - Captain Redhair: and all that for less gold
2:33 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Yes
2:34 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Then if you went blood stone, phase boots and desolater
2:34 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Which would give you about the same mana and health, minus 2 disables and -7 armor on your attacks(which won't do much at +60 damage only)
2:35 PM - Captain Redhair: -42%ehp is still -42%
2:35 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: -42% depends on their armor and current health.
2:35 PM - Captain Redhair: the lower the better
2:35 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And a 50% slow and a 3.5 second disable are still the same.
2:35 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Personally, those two > desolater's passive.
2:35 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Especially on a non-carry like Lina.,
2:36 PM - Captain Redhair: what about the medaillon
2:36 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: That's wasted gold, really
2:36 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Since the majority of your ganking will come from magic damage.
2:36 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: You're better off getting an urn
2:36 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: the 6 str is a lot better early game then 6 armor
2:37 PM - Captain Redhair: and the heal
2:37 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Indeed.
2:37 PM - Captain Redhair: or -150
2:37 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Lina doesn't need much help from items if she has levels, all she really needs is her spells and her team mates to kill.
2:37 PM - Captain Redhair: if I get an urn.. Tranquil isn't a good idea then
2:37 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Mhm
2:38 PM - Captain Redhair: What about Phase?
2:38 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Phase can work as well if you need the movement speed, but keep in mind that they cost a lot more then tranquil which have about the same movement
2:38 PM - Captain Redhair: Well tranquil would still provide me HP and movespeed
2:38 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: that's including phase active
2:38 PM - Captain Redhair: and keeping charges for lets say
2:38 PM - Captain Redhair: Void
2:38 PM - Captain Redhair: or sven, chaos knight, etc
2:39 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Yep
2:39 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Anyways, I'm done talking dota for now.
2:39 PM - Captain Redhair: but It's helping me..
2:40 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: And I've spent a good hour talking to you about it. I have other peole to attend to.
2:40 PM - Captain Redhair: *uses spider poison!* Nah you're right
2:40 PM - Captain Redhair: here: I'll try it if I can and I'll come back with you about it
2:41 PM - Captain Redhair: thank you
2:41 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: No problem.
2:41 PM - Captain Redhair: but that medaillon.. I mean it not only helps you..
2:42 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: It's good for people who already have armor debuffs.
2:42 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Or for soloing roshan/
2:42 PM - Captain Redhair: hmm I'l try other test, if it dosent help my friends.. team.. or like alchemist?
2:42 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Early game medallion, unless you're a high physical attacker, is pretty bad.
2:42 PM - Captain Redhair: mid game medaillon?
2:42 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: Mid game it's alright, but the gold is better spent elsewhere.
2:42 PM - Captain Redhair: (and I stop with dota 2)
2:43 PM - ???? Kurodani Yamame: yeah.
2:43 PM - Captain Redhair: alright