[12:37:49 AM] Fixed: they should really make it so that ex tunes increase the cost of your bot and the capa of your bot at the same time
[12:39:37 AM] nzlk: that would make ex tunes even more imbalanced
[12:39:42 AM] Fixed: I mean
[12:39:47 AM] Fixed: it adds 10 cost 10 capa
[12:39:56 AM] Fixed: so you're worth more no extra cap
[12:39:58 AM] nzlk: they already add cost for the stats
[12:40:01 AM] DavidRain: genius regina
[12:40:11 AM] nzlk: adding capa just gives them even more space for tunes
[12:40:13 AM] DavidRain: walks all the way to our spawn to set heal pit
[12:40:17 AM] DavidRain: when enemy is at their spawn
[12:40:18 AM] Fixed: not if it takes all the cap away, nzlk
[12:40:35 AM] nzlk: regular tune +1 stat +5 cost
ex tune +1 stat +5 cost +5 cap???
[12:40:45 AM] nzlk: thats what you're suggesting
[12:40:52 AM] Fixed: +1 stat +15 cost +10 cap
[12:41:10 AM] DavidRain: lol fat as fuck
[12:41:14 AM] Fixed: in other words fully ex tuned bots will be 100 capa more than non-extuned
[12:41:19 AM] Fixed: so yes you will be fat as fuck
[12:41:26 AM] DavidRain: imagine if a fully tuned 1.6k cost eris
[12:41:31 AM] Fixed: is now 1.7k
[12:41:52 AM] nzlk: yeah or you could just do a tank tune to get +15 hp +1 stat for 15 cost
[12:41:58 AM] nzlk: your idea makes no sense
[12:42:07 AM] Fixed: it's just to make ex tuning worse
[12:42:07 AM] DavidRain: lol true
[12:42:08 AM] Fixed: that's it
[12:42:19 AM] Fixed: honestly if you think tanks are bad
[12:42:20 AM] nzlk: ex tunes arent op in any way
[12:42:20 AM] DavidRain: whats the point of ex tune then
[12:42:23 AM] Fixed: you can just add the same rule to tanks too
[12:42:34 AM] DavidRain: if the normal hp + stat tunes are better
[12:42:36 AM] nzlk: you get an extra 100-150hp at the most
[12:42:39 AM] Fixed: so you're saying 100 free hp doesn't make a difference ever?
[12:42:45 AM] Fixed: that's a lot of mitigation
[12:42:47 AM] Fixed: especially for melee
[12:42:49 AM] Fixed: and air
[12:43:00 AM] Fixed: maybe not as much for sup or art
[12:43:15 AM] Fixed: yer still fat
[12:43:21 AM] nzlk: personally most of my stuff isnt ex tuned and i have no problems
[12:43:31 AM] Fixed: I just find it odd
[12:43:38 AM | Edited 12:43:54 AM] Fixed: that a 500 hp bot and a 605hp bot have the same cost
[12:44:01 AM] nzlk: they're called life tunes
[12:44:06 AM] Fixed: no, ex tunes
[12:44:13 AM] A I: exactly the same, except one has more HP
[12:44:22 AM] Fixed: life tunes add cost
[12:44:25 AM] Fixed: ex tunes do not
[12:44:29 AM] nzlk: having more hp doesnt really do much if you already live long enough to exhaust your ammo
[12:44:41 AM] A I: I think you are missing the point
[12:45:06 AM] A I: it's literally just +HP for no downside other than materials
[12:45:13 AM] Fixed: what vyers says
[12:45:16 AM] nzlk: if ex tunes and regular tunes had the exact same material requirements then yeah
[12:45:20 AM] nzlk: but they dont so
[12:45:30 AM] A I: so cashfags get more free stuff
[12:45:34 AM] A I: CS wins
[12:45:39 AM] nzlk: pretty much
[12:45:51 AM] nzlk: at least it still requires effort to obtain
[12:45:58 AM] A I: not easy to EX tune when they cost so much more and have less success rate
[12:45:59 AM] nzlk: how many ex tunes have you failed
[12:46:03 AM] Fixed: idc about effort to obtain
[12:46:09 AM] Fixed: I'm talking about arena balance mechanics
[12:46:16 AM] Fixed: so cost effectiveness actually makes sense
[12:46:17 AM] nzlk: theres the problem already
[12:46:18 AM] Fixed: rather than just saying
[12:46:20 AM] Fixed: lets put ex tunes on everything
[12:46:25 AM] nzlk: you're talking about balancing a game thats already horrendously inbalanced
[12:46:26 AM] Fixed: because it's effective for money regardless
[12:46:35 AM] Fixed: also the last 100 hp
[12:46:37 AM] Fixed: of a diving melee
[12:46:39 AM] Fixed: is like 400+ EHP
[12:46:41 AM] Fixed: so gfg
[12:47:06 AM] Fixed: or at worst like 200 ehp if you're hitting it with beam
[12:47:18 AM] nzlk: i still think you are overreacting over a little extra hp
[12:47:27 AM] Fixed: well
[12:47:30 AM] Fixed: I took my ouka
[12:47:33 AM] CrossMirage: life is srs bsns
[12:47:34 AM] Fixed: put 2x 100 HP items
[12:47:40 AM] Fixed: and I do 1820 dmg before dying
[12:47:44 AM] Fixed: by just z1'ing
[12:47:48 AM] Fixed: without the 2x100s
[12:47:50 AM] Fixed: I do 900-1000
[12:48:00 AM] Fixed: where does the last 800 dmg in surv come in?
[12:48:18 AM] Macropyre: Fixed: I do 2k damage with 1 HP item in tow with Ouka
[12:48:20 AM] Fixed: Because there's a flat fee associated with z1'ing
[12:48:31 AM] Fixed: macro, these are rough estimates
[12:48:35 AM] Fixed: also I'm being retarded in z1'ing
[12:48:36 AM] Macropyre: But normally I deny melee LNDs from anything so that goes lower
[12:48:47 AM] Fixed: like
[12:48:48 AM] Macropyre: and sometimes I don't even get anything at all because >retard
[12:48:48 AM] Fixed: straight up
[12:48:52 AM] Fixed: charging alpha airs
[12:48:57 AM] Fixed: also I always get something
[12:49:02 AM] Fixed: just because of that extra 200 hp
[12:49:08 AM] Fixed: makes the trade worth it 100% of the time nearly
[12:49:19 AM] Fixed: which is why 100 extra hp from extunes is prolly srsbsns.
[12:49:54 AM] A I: I don't think ex tunes usually work for me, I put in more effort when I'm running out of HP :v
[12:49:54 AM] Fixed: also the reason why ship is super derp
[12:50:07 AM] Fixed: is because you start with 600 hp
[12:50:09 AM] Fixed: lol
[12:50:11 AM] nzlk: 100hp is less than the 150hp toast heals you thats obtainable for free, just saying
[12:50:17 AM] Fixed: if it had 400 hp you'd be much more scrapped for escape
[12:50:29 AM] A I: but you could have that extra 100 AND items
[12:50:30 AM] Fixed: 150hp toast?
[12:50:38 AM] DavidRain: angel coin shop
[12:50:43 AM] DavidRain: toast heals 150 hp
[12:50:46 AM] Fixed: lol
[12:50:51 AM] Fixed: yea
[12:50:53 AM] Fixed: what vyers says
[12:50:56 AM] Fixed: you can just stack them
[12:51:00 AM] Fixed: and it just gets more gay
[12:51:05 AM] Fixed: celebrations intensify
[12:51:08 AM] A I: 100 HP on a bot that would have 350 otherwise is a bigger difference too
[12:51:21 AM] A I: it's not always the difference between 500 and 600 or something
[12:51:50 AM] nzlk: i dont know about you guys but you make it sound like damage is unavoidable when you play
[12:51:53 AM] Fixed: 500 and 600 do matter though -- when you're dueling someone with melee and they have 600 and you have 500, you're pretty much going to lose after both of you get your revenge tunes activated
[12:52:01 AM] A I: some damage is unavoidable
[12:52:10 AM] Fixed: sorry nzlk, not everyone plays air and has the latency to get out of everything :c
[12:52:20 AM] DavidRain: well  it kind of is unavoidable if you're in mid melee combo :x
[12:52:24 AM] Fixed: well
[12:52:40 AM] Fixed: it's unavoidable if you're support and a melee with super move tunes is just barrel rolling into your face
[12:52:55 AM] A I: or you just happen to get surrounded because can't see everything at once
[12:52:56 AM] Fixed: unavoidable if you're LND and the other lnd has a hold
[12:52:56 AM] nzlk: lagging around with melee is already saving you from tons of damage
[12:53:06 AM] Fixed: unavoidable if you're art and a lnd is going at you
[12:53:18 AM] Fixed: and when you get in those unavoidable positions
[12:53:28 AM] Fixed: you simply take a bit longer giving your allies more time to kill whoever's killing you
[12:53:49 AM] Fixed: also in mirror matchups it can easily determine if you win a 1v1 or not and who dies
[12:54:06 AM] Fixed: and in teamfights, how much initial pressure your team has
[12:54:41 AM] Fixed: just saying that it should be counteracted slightly by cost so there's an advantage/disadvantage to tuning for it rather than 'put it on anything that has a slot for it'
[12:55:00 AM] nzlk: the disadvantage is obtaining the mats for it and passing the tune
[12:55:13 AM] Fixed: that's not an in-game disadvantage though, that's out-of-battle
[12:56:15 AM] nzlk: you either have to spend time untuned while obtaining the elements or not play the robot
[12:56:28 AM] A I: if you put it that way, any tunes that aren't 100% have a disadvantage over the +1 100% ones
[12:56:55 AM] A I: getting slot protectors and harmonics to make things work isn't easy unless you pay for them
[12:57:01 AM] nzlk: pretty much
[12:57:19 AM] A I: ...and yet those other tunes have a very clear advantage over the 100% ones
[12:57:28 AM] A I: same with EX tunes
[12:57:46 AM] A I: the point is how the perform after being tuned
[12:57:53 AM] A I: *they
[12:58:18 AM] nzlk: going by that logic high beta tunes are op because they add 2 stats for the same cost as +1 tunes
[12:58:32 AM] Fixed: they subtract 2 stats though
[12:58:33 AM] A I: but, they have downsides to them
[12:58:38 AM] A I: EX don't over normal tunes
[12:58:45 AM] A I: this is the whole point wow
[1:00:24 AM] A I: I can only think of one reason why you wouldn't want more HP, and that's if you plan to burst away your ammo fast then suicide
[1:00:48 AM] SayakaMaizonoBestMan: even so you might want hp for that too
[1:00:50 AM] SayakaMaizonoBestMan: lol
[1:00:53 AM] Fixed: even then you might want hp in case you get focused
[1:00:56 AM] A I: not like it's hard to suicide with more HP yeah ;_;
[1:00:56 AM] Fixed: or something bad happens
[1:01:15 AM] A I: hypothetically though that would be the reason
[1:01:44 AM] Fixed: well yes, it shaves 2 seconds off of humping meta cactii to kill yourself
[1:01:55 AM] Fixed: sure is advantage right thar
[1:02:16 AM] Fixed: then again if you p2w hard enough you can just double slot ammo
[1:02:27 AM] Fixed: and by the time you run out of ammo the other team should be plastered
[1:03:16 AM] A I: still, just proves how EX tunes>normal tunes in every way ;_;
[1:03:24 AM] Fixed: pretty much
[1:03:30 AM] A I: even that one possible example sounds dumb
[1:03:40 AM] nzlk: their purpose is to be better than normal tunes though
[1:03:42 AM] Fixed: I just think the upgrade path should have cost efficiency as an option
[1:03:43 AM] nzlk: thats why they're ex tunes
[1:04:03 AM] Fixed: well
[1:04:05 AM] Fixed: ex moves in fighting games
[1:04:10 AM] A I: the point is they make normal tunes obsolete
[1:04:10 AM] Fixed: aren't necessarily better than normals
[1:04:20 AM] Fixed: and they by no way make normals obsolete :v
[1:04:26 AM] A I: not for the tuning side no
[1:04:43 AM] Fixed: and even if you tagged a 10 cost penalty to every ex tune
[1:04:50 AM] Fixed: it's not like it would change builds that rely on hp anyway
[1:04:55 AM] Fixed: they would still go for it
[1:05:02 AM] nzlk: its not like ex tunes are able to break the 40stat cap or anything
[1:05:04 AM] Fixed: just that then you wouldn't have to ex tune, say, a melfi
[1:05:17 AM] A I: no, they break what the HP cap would be without them instead :v
[1:06:01 AM] A I: no need to make a choice you can get both more stats and more HP at no cost
[1:06:42 AM] Fixed: it also is what makes those super high tier bots completely rampant in clan fights
[1:06:53 AM] Fixed: no need for cost effectiveness when you get free shit for being expensive
[1:07:13 AM] nzlk: i dont understand the fuss, its some extra hp not a completely gamebreaking thing like comparing an eris to a froglander
[1:07:21 AM] A I: "I payed money so now I have a clear advantage" type of thing
[1:07:28 AM] A I: that's why it's annoying
[1:07:41 AM] Fixed: how isn't extra hp completely gamebreaking?
[1:07:45 AM] Fixed: Imagine if you were playing a fighter
[1:07:52 AM] Fixed: you can kill your opponent in 3 combos
[1:07:55 AM] Fixed: your opponent has the same character
[1:07:58 AM] Fixed: but kills you in 2 combos
[1:07:58 AM] nzlk: because you can easily make up for it with player skill
[1:08:01 AM] Fixed: what is that shit ;v
[1:08:09 AM] A I: ...
[1:08:13 AM] Fixed: not at a high enough level
[1:08:14 AM] A I: you are really missing the point
[1:08:14 AM] Fixed: you can't lol
[1:08:37 AM] Fixed: also a lot of classes have unavoidable fights
[1:08:42 AM] Fixed: because we're not air :c
[1:08:46 AM] A I: it makes one bot>another bot that is exactly the same
[1:09:11 AM] nzlk: melee is the only one that has unavoidable fights and is the only type i would say hp is critical on
[1:09:23 AM] Fixed: support is critical
[1:09:28 AM] A I: being able to take more damage>not being able to take more damage
[1:09:35 AM] Fixed: because you're banking your hp vs whoever's attacking you's hp
[1:09:37 AM] Fixed: same with artillery
[1:09:46 AM] A I: how is this even being discussed I have a headache now
[1:10:15 AM] nzlk: take the multitude of people who cant aim and give them +100 hp
[1:10:24 AM] nzlk: the only difference is you get +100 damage to your score when you kill them
[1:10:29 AM] A I: and then take a pile that can and give them +100 HP too
[1:10:33 AM] A I: clearly that is balanced
[1:10:40 AM] A I: against the ones without the extra HP
[1:10:51 AM] nzlk: so do ex tunes yourself then
[1:10:59 AM] A I: no, I don't because I don't play enough
[1:11:32 AM] nzlk: so ex tunes benefit players who put more time into the game and you're complaining because you dont
[1:11:39 AM] A I: OR
[1:11:40 AM] A I: more money
[1:11:45 AM] Fixed: it's a limitless battle against new bots, ex tunes, and people play/pay2wining for both
[1:11:54 AM] Fixed: dont forget bots with 999 locked slots woo.
[1:12:14 AM] nzlk: so put more money in yourself then
[1:12:26 AM] A I: ...you are seriously missing the point entirely
[1:12:38 AM] nzlk: or are you saying someone with 0 uc should be on the same level as someone who tuned their bot
[1:12:59 AM] CrossMirage: so are we arguing about who needs ex tunes, why ex tunes are better, or (drunk)
[1:13:09 AM] A I: that EX tunes>no EX tunes
[1:13:10 AM] nzlk: im saying i dont think 100hp is that big a deal when theres blatantly overpowered shit like eris and melfi hearts
[1:13:13 AM] A I: apparently they are equal!
[1:13:27 AM] nzlk: stop putting words into my mouth im not saying that
[1:13:38 AM] A I: you're saying it's "no big deal" etc
[1:13:40 AM] Fixed: you're saying it doesn't matter
[1:13:45 AM] A I: when it's a clear advantage
[1:13:49 AM] nzlk: [1:13 AM] nzlk: 

<<< im saying i dont think 100hp is that big a deal when theres blatantly overpowered shit like eris and melfi hearts
[1:14:10 AM] A I: ...and then you throw +100 HP on both of those because they paid more money
[1:14:13 AM] A I: making them even worse
[1:14:15 AM] A I: how is that not a big deal
[1:15:03 AM] DavidRain: because everyone can ex tune
[1:15:28 AM] A I: fuck it
[1:15:46 AM] CrossMirage: the problem is
[1:15:53 AM] A I: because everyone can pay money too
[1:15:55 AM] CrossMirage: ex tunes are too easily accessible to rich people
[1:16:21 AM] A I: but you can just steal money and pay for it too see no big deal
[1:16:31 AM] CrossMirage: w
[1:16:59 AM] Fixed: eh cross, even if you're rich
[1:17:03 AM] A I: this is the dumbest conversation I've been in for a very long time
[1:17:07 AM] Fixed: I don't think very many people would spend $200/cycle
[1:17:12 AM] Fixed: j/s.
[1:17:26 AM] A I: if you have the choice, you would choose EX over no EX, it is a clear advantage
[1:17:31 AM] A I: that is the point
[1:17:45 AM] A I: not having anything to do with how hard it is to tune, not having anything to do with anything but that
[1:18:17 AM] A I: they are free HP with no downside, that is why they are dumb
[1:18:54 AM] nzlk: i just dont see how why +100hp is super overpowered etc. when rt can get you stuff like eris and no rt gets you absolutely jack all on that power level in comparison
[1:19:17 AM] A I: ...
[1:19:21 AM] *** A I has left ***
[1:19:26 AM] CrossMirage: rip
[1:19:40 AM] DavidRain: wot
[1:19:50 AM] CrossMirage: look aesh it's not that kind of gap at all
[1:19:55 AM] CrossMirage: it's not that op sure
[1:19:59 AM] CrossMirage: but it's a clear edge
[1:20:13 AM] nzlk: yeah but it requires effort to obtain
[1:20:17 AM] DavidRain: but everyone can get that edge with :effort:
[1:20:33 AM] Fixed: you mean
[1:20:33 AM] Fixed: botting
[1:20:36 AM] Fixed: s> bots
[1:20:40 AM] CrossMirage: w
[1:20:47 AM] nzlk: and their counterargument is just 'oh big spenders get it and i dont because i dont pay and dont want to pay'
[1:20:55 AM] Fixed: that's what ends up happening in every game with high play-to-win barriers that don't involve performance at all
[1:21:07 AM] CrossMirage: let's leave effort out of this, okay? that is not related to the point being made
[1:21:51 AM] nzlk: if you accept that doing ex tunes requires effort, then that already makes them harder than just rolling or buying a bot thats op out of the box without tunes
[1:21:59 AM] Fixed: and the only reason I can't bot is because I have a laptop that is expensive to repair if I leave it on forever and I'm too lazy to make a console version ;_;
[1:22:11 AM] nzlk: and thats why i dont see the fuss
[1:22:15 AM] Fixed: idk how rt has anything to do with this
[1:22:21 AM] Fixed: because they can simply buy ex tunes with rt too
[1:22:38 AM] CrossMirage: (drunk)
[1:22:47 AM] CrossMirage: effort is not related to the point being made
[1:22:49 AM] CrossMirage: the point is
[1:23:04 AM] CrossMirage: ex tunes are so much better than normal tunes
[1:23:06 AM] CrossMirage: that is all
[1:23:18 AM] nzlk: [1:10:51 AM] nzlk: so do ex tunes yourself then
[1:10:59 AM] A I: no, I don't because I don't play enough
[1:11:32 AM] nzlk: so ex tunes benefit players who put more time into the game and you're complaining because you dont
[1:11:39 AM] A I: OR
[1:11:40 AM] A I: more money

how do you expect to get equal footing if you're not willing to put either time or money into it
[1:23:41 AM] Fixed: by having a niche
[1:23:44 AM] Fixed: also
[1:23:58 AM] nzlk: that doesnt really answer it
[1:24:00 AM] CrossMirage: aesh pls stop strawman army
[1:24:05 AM] Fixed: we're talking about
[1:24:13 AM] Fixed: ex vs non-ex balance
[1:24:14 AM] Fixed: not
[1:24:25 AM] Fixed: p2w/pl2w vs none
[1:24:30 AM] CrossMirage: ^
[1:24:40 AM] nzlk: but theres nothing stopping anyone from ex tuning theoretically
[1:24:45 AM] Fixed: if you add penalties for ex tuning
[1:24:48 AM] Fixed: then there will be more customization
[1:24:48 AM] nzlk: and then you guys bring up 'oh you need to pay to do ex tunes'
[1:24:51 AM] Fixed: and variance between builds
[1:24:52 AM] CrossMirage: [11:24:05 PM] CrossMirage: aesh pls stop strawman army
[1:25:00 AM] Fixed: rather than simply just forcing everyone to slap on ex tunes for everything
[1:25:10 AM] Fixed: because it's just better 99/100 times
[1:26:59 AM] Fixed: like why do you think people on cbff were bitching about cost effectiveness mediger AMs on 330 cost units compared to like expensive healing platforms like non-JA MH and a fully kitted mediger @ 980 or so cost?
[1:27:15 AM] Fixed: Because you simply get free [ex tune hp etc] shit for being expensive because you can tack those on for free
[1:27:22 AM] nzlk: pretty much everyone on cbff is retarded
[1:27:27 AM] Fixed: But they're right
[1:27:33 AM] Fixed: because you get extra longevity
[1:27:37 AM] Fixed: just by having tunes
[1:27:41 AM] Fixed: because you can slap on ex tunes on those tunes
[1:27:48 AM] Fixed: and suddenly come out 100 hp ahead
[1:27:52 AM] Fixed: in addition to all the other shit you were ahead by
[1:27:55 AM] Fixed: making you even more cost effective
[1:28:01 AM] Fixed: EVEN
[1:28:02 AM] Fixed: MOAR
[1:28:03 AM] Fixed: COST
[1:28:04 AM] Fixed: EFFECTIV
[1:28:46 AM] CrossMirage: ^^^^
[1:29:16 AM] DavidRain: but everyone has access to it
[1:29:19 AM] DavidRain: .-.
[1:29:28 AM] CrossMirage: that's not the point dave (drunk)
[1:29:42 AM] nzlk: the game is already inherently unbalanced
[1:29:59 AM] DavidRain: it kind of is when you're saying ex tunes are imbalanced
[1:30:13 AM] DavidRain: how is it imbalanced when everyone can slap on 100 more hp
[1:30:15 AM] Fixed: jeremy
[1:30:15 AM] Fixed: tbh
[1:30:19 AM] Fixed: everyone has access to erises
[1:30:21 AM] Fixed: as well
[1:30:22 AM] Fixed: so dont' give me that crap lol
[1:30:27 AM] nzlk: no, they dont
[1:30:28 AM] Fixed: don't have rt?
[1:30:30 AM] Fixed: get a fucking job
[1:30:32 AM] Fixed: work some time
[1:30:34 AM] Fixed: it's so ez
[1:30:37 AM] CrossMirage: i already said that's not the point, good god dave
[1:30:38 AM] Fixed: then put the money to cb
[1:30:40 AM] Fixed: don't want a job?
[1:30:44 AM] Fixed: online work
[1:30:48 AM] Fixed: amazon mturk
[1:30:51 AM] Fixed: put the money to cb
[1:30:57 AM] Fixed: in the long run it's all about time
[1:30:58 AM] nzlk: you can roll as much as you want into a garapon and not get a single thing
[1:30:59 AM] Fixed: if you think about it
[1:31:02 AM] nzlk: so no i wouldnt say everyone has access to it
[1:31:04 AM] Fixed: nope, not true
[1:31:10 AM] Fixed: with enough rolls
[1:31:12 AM] Fixed: you can get anything
[1:31:18 AM] Fixed: really wanna go to the limit?
[1:31:21 AM] Fixed: take out a fucking loan.
[1:31:32 AM] Fixed: can you do it?
[1:31:33 AM] Fixed: Sure.
[1:31:38 AM] Fixed: Is it smart to do so?
[1:31:40 AM] Fixed: Probably not.
[1:31:59 AM] nzlk: youre comparing rolling a luck machine to obtaining materials from guranteed sources
[1:32:04 AM] nzlk: how is that the same
[1:32:07 AM] Fixed: gaining money is based on luck too
[1:32:23 AM] Fixed: so how is this even relevant?
[1:32:26 AM] Fixed: luck is always part of the equation
[1:32:29 AM] nzlk: if you're going to stretch definitions like that theres no point continueing
[1:32:33 AM] Fixed: cb can be down for a week
[1:32:37 AM] Fixed: that would screw over play2win people
[1:32:39 AM] Fixed: no
[1:32:44 AM | Removed 1:32:52 AM] Fixed: This message has been removed.
[1:32:54 AM] CrossMirage: it sure is strawman army around here
[1:33:05 AM] nzlk: yeah im the jackass for saying garapons and buying something from the shop are different?
[1:33:07 AM] Fixed: fighting fire with napalm woo.
[1:33:14 AM] Fixed: it's all a function of time spent
[1:33:26 AM] nzlk: one is a luck based, one you're guranteed to get what you paid for
[1:33:55 AM] Fixed: it's not luck based if you have statistical certainty in monetary amounts
[1:33:58 AM] Fixed: also the game is a PRNG
[1:34:01 AM] Fixed: if you really wanted to be sure
[1:34:05 AM] Fixed: you can just make additional accounts
[1:34:06 AM] CrossMirage: fine aesh, if you want a fairer comparison, let's take shop bots as an example
[1:34:07 AM] Fixed: and roll at the same time
[1:34:09 AM] Fixed: and be guaranteed a bot
[1:34:10 AM] nzlk: rolling it more doesnt make it not luck based
[1:34:13 AM] Fixed: yes it's GUARANTEED
[1:34:22 AM] Fixed: because you can force the java to spit you out the next 100 rolls
[1:34:38 AM] Fixed: if you roll all of them at the same time the random function will throw the next 100 seed
[1:34:51 AM] Fixed: look up the maximum seed distance between var values attributed
[1:34:55 AM] Fixed: and roll it all at the same time
[1:35:01 AM] Fixed: now it's guaranteed for the amount you roll
[1:35:27 AM] nzlk: im pretty certain making 100 accounts to roll 100 at the same time cant be compared to buying someone outright
[1:35:30 AM] Fixed: therefore, Rt bots are balanced because you can simply outskill someone with them
[1:35:33 AM] Fixed: and everyone has access to them anyway
[1:36:01 AM] Fixed: And if you say not
[1:36:10 AM] Fixed: then why aren't ex tunes considered 'fair' even though they give a free advantage
[1:36:15 AM] Fixed: and all the cost is time
[1:36:20 AM] nzlk: what is with you people and putting words in my mouth
for the final time, I DONT SEE WHAT THE FUSS OVER +100HP IS WHEN THERE IS FAR MORE UNBALANCED SHIT IN THE GAME
[1:36:30 AM] nzlk: i never said regular tunes = ex tunes
[1:36:37 AM] nzlk: or all that other crap you're saying i said
[1:36:41 AM] Fixed: you say it's insignificant
[1:36:43 AM] Fixed: but it's really not
[1:37:01 AM] Fixed: in a 10v10, the difference in hp is 1000
[1:37:06 AM] Fixed: that's an entire melfi heart
[1:37:08 AM] Fixed: worth of healing
[1:37:11 AM] Fixed: if you think she's op
[1:37:13 AM] Fixed: there's your op
[1:37:17 AM] Fixed: right there in a single match
[1:37:20 AM] Fixed: without a bot even required
[1:37:28 AM] nzlk: well see you seem to have no problems using op shit like melfi heart and trying to justify it
[1:37:28 AM] CrossMirage: jesus christ aesh, fallacy of relative privation
[1:37:35 AM] Fixed: I'm not even talking about
[1:37:36 AM] nzlk: but for some reason ex tunes are the devil
[1:37:37 AM] Fixed: melfi heart atm
[1:37:44 AM] nzlk: its the same deal
[1:37:47 AM] Fixed: and I don't see myself saying she's bad
[1:37:55 AM] Fixed: honestly
[1:38:00 AM] Fixed: I told you she's the top 2 healers
[1:38:09 AM] CrossMirage: x is not important when there is y in cb
[1:38:10 AM] Fixed: the only other one that can even be considered are the regina series
[1:38:12 AM] CrossMirage: rrright
[1:38:14 AM] nzlk: you're using a bot that cant be compared to by inferior things
[1:38:15 AM] Fixed: but this is besides the point
[1:38:23 AM] Fixed: because you can have MH
[1:38:24 AM] Fixed: and have ex tunes
[1:38:30 AM] Fixed: they aren't independent so why are you talking that they are
[1:38:40 AM] Fixed: cya, off to rtw2
[1:38:51 AM] Fixed: will read after I get back
[1:38:51 AM] Fixed: :c
[1:39:19 AM] CrossMirage: o/
[1:39:57 AM] CrossMirage: Aesh: " I DONT SEE WHAT THE FUSS OVER +100HP IS WHEN THERE IS FAR MORE UNBALANCED SHIT IN THE GAME" but we aren't talking about other unbalanced shit now are we
[1:44:26 AM] CrossMirage: i know what you're trying to say but seriously, quit the strawmen armies
[1:45:02 AM] DavidRain: be a potater
[1:45:14 AM] CrossMirage: w
[1:45:27 AM] DavidRain: everybody loves potatoes
[1:45:32 AM] DavidRain: :3
[1:45:37 AM] CrossMirage: not me, i hate taters ;_;
[1:46:03 AM] CrossMirage: i will not touch potato anything
[1:46:08 AM] CrossMirage: chips fries etc
[1:46:09 AM] Macropyre: [12:51 AM] Fixed: 

<<< 500 and 600 do matter though -- when you're dueling someone with melee and they have 600 and you have 500, you're pretty much going to lose after both of you get your revenge tunes activatedExcept that can be mitigated by being smart and disengaging fights
[1:46:15 AM] nzlk: im bringing up op robots because what you're saying is
regular tunes = regular hp
ex tunes = regular hp +100
ex tunes are better so they're op

uc robots = baseline
gara stuff = better than the baseline
unlike hp from ex tuning, there is no way uc bots can match up to eris or mikoto, you cant drastically improve the capabilities
but extra hp from ex tunes are obtainable by everyone (but then you bring up 'big spenders can ex tune easier')
[1:46:47 AM] Macropyre: also, you know you have an issue when you require excessive HP tunes like a little bitch
[1:46:53 AM] nzlk: thank you marco someone else seems to understand my position
[1:47:00 AM] Macropyre: instead of being smart and avoiding what you need to avoid
[1:47:08 AM] Macropyre: my point is:
[1:47:24 AM] Macropyre: Ex tunes are crass, no matter what they are; might as well be Accessory-only EX-TUNING.