Serenes Forest Forums: Deleting posts: Terrible. - Serenes Forest Forums

I doubt I'm the only person that is annoyed by this, but lately it's more than a little frustrating because it's actually making me feel a little insane. I do not understand why SF deletes posts. If a post is against the rules, why are you not editing the post and leaving a verbal warning, or deleting the content in the post and saying "content deleted" or something like that? No other forum does this, with extremely rare exception, and it is beyond frustrating.

Imagine for a second, how I feel when I make any post. I come back an hour later, and that post isn't there. Did I actually post it? Did I post it and it got deleted? Why? Was it against the rules? Did it offend someone? Is SF just randomly censoring posts? Heck, I posted a post in a new hacking topic telling the guy how I was glad that after only a month, he had made so much progress, or at least I think I fucking did but I'm not sure, because SF deletes posts. And when I say "SF", I mean the moderators and admins of SF. And if it was deleted, I can see no legitimate reason WHY it was deleted.

Deleting posts is asinine. What if someone sees my post, replies to it (without quoting me), and then my post is deleted? There's no trace of who was being replied to. Is there even a record of who is deleting posts around here? What if a mod just starts deleting posts of mine he/she doesn't like, what is my defense? (And I'm not pointing a finger, since I have no proof, but that seems like a likely case with the post in that one thread I just made. I see no other reason for the post to have been deleted.) I don't know who deleted it, I just think it may or may not have been deleted, or maybe my browser screwed up.


And then, what if I do something legitimately bad and they delete my post. I then can't remember if I posted in that thread, and I make the same/similar post. The mod says "Oh look this mother fucker posted again, time for a warn." Well I didn't know if it was deleted or if I'm imagining things, and now I got a warn.



Oh, and this bring me to another issue; lack of communication with the members by the moderation team. 90% of warns handed out are done without any notification. I was here for two months before I realized I had 4 warns, adding up to 30%. No PM's telling me "You got a warn" (Which most decent forum software does automatically at the least, and most moderators do as a courtesy) and then lo and behold, I ended up getting randobanned. Admittedly, I wasn't thinking when I linked to lemonparty in what was clearly a joke thread but still, no notification, just one entire week after the actual post (At which point the thread was long gone anyway and it's doubtful anyone would see it) I get randomly banned.

Where is the communication? Whether it's randomly deleting posts, giving out warns and not telling people, is this the way SF runs its forum? I get that this is the biggest FE forum left, but this seems really unprofessional. Unless of course, and this will be the ironic part, someone deletes this ticket. AND IT MIGHT HAPPEN LOLOL CUZ CENSORSHIP LOLOLOL. I'm saving this on a text document though, just in case.

And also so I know I actually made the post.

Actually, I agree completely. I've never liked the idea of removing posts, and I rarely do so myself. For the record, posts usually aren't deleted, but unapproved. This means they still exist, but only mods can view them. Even though I pretty much agree with what you say here, there's one thing I need to point out.

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You do realize that saving a private ticket in a text file will do you no good if it gets deleted, right? Not that it matters, since I won't let it be deleted.

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This was my first ticket post, and I couldn't edit it lol. And yeah, I realize they're private now xP

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Well, that makes one. At least you're a smart one.

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So in the example post where I linked to lemonparty, you can still see that post then?

The only posts I DELETE are accidental double posts that aren't even the user's mistake or posts people request to have deleted.

The no notification on your warns thing is rather strange. Usually mods tell the user in a thread or in a PM that can be sent from the warning control. But yeah as Charlie said, posts are mostly unapproved, not deleted. There's no rule that says you can't ask a mod through PM about posts of yours that have been deleted so you can just ask.

In cases where someone has quoted a post we unapprove, we either edit the quote or unapprove the quoting post as well depending on what it's like.

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Yes.

This post has been edited by Sirius: 12 July 2012 - 10:41 PM

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Despite the fact that I'm not a perfect member and I have like, 12 warns or whatever, I've only gotten two PM's in the past, and one of them was just me asking why I got warned. I just think that there should be more communication among staff, and more notification to members about these kinds of things.

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But I, and many other members too, have no idea what mod removed our posts. And in my case, I'm not even sure half the time why a post was unapproved, or if it was, or if I just never posted it in the first place. This is another thing staff should communicate to the members about. If a post is so bad it gets deleted/unapproved, maybe I should know that I did something wrong, and in the future I'll be able to avoid it.

Don't members get notified of warnings, though? I was under the impression they did since I've had people I warned PM me about the warn more than once. I don't know how they would have known unless they randomly checked their warn history immediately after getting warned. But that's why I don't otherwise PM people about a warn, so if it turns out that you don't get notified and those instances I referenced were just strange coincidences, then I'll start sending PMs with warns.

As for the deletion of posts thing, I can go either way.

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This is probably a case where you should be more worried about editing a post than removing it. Whether deleted or unapproved, posts can be brought back and seen, but not if it's been edited. And that really is the main argument for deleting over editing; the original content can be retrieved, observed, and debated. What if this mod who didn't like you suddenly decided to get you forcefully removed from the forum (not that any of us would feel the need to go so far), edited a post before anyone else had a chance to see it, and told us you posted porn? There you would have no defense.

I'm pretty sure we can trust everyone on staff to not blatantly lie about what's been posted, but we do make mistakes. If the original content can't be retrieved, what's your solution?

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Statements like this don't really make people want to help you. Be mad if you have to be, but be civil.

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The one time I pm'd someone was once I noticed my fourth warning, and I think that was Shuuda I pm'd, because I had noticed a blue bar on my profile and realized it was a warn bar. So no, I'm not getting notifications, and yes it's all a coincidence.

Mindfuck

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I would say that if they actually edited the post, there's probably going to be a "Edited by X mod" at the bottom, which would be my defense, but I see your point.

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Dondon made a post commenting about how he hated that posts get deleted, and his post was deleted. I'd say my reaction is pretty warranted, as it's not the only time a post has been removed for questioning leadership on the forum :V

And for the most part, I'm really quite civil.

Also, I'm suggesting that instead of deleting/unapproving/other politically correct term-ing a post, you guys edit a post with "Verbal warn for spam" or something, like any other forum would do. And if the content is really THAT bad, then you unapprove it and send a PM saying "Whoa! Not good!" or give out a warn if it's REALLY that bad.

Just... randomly unapproving a post because you don't like it only makes the forum more confusing that it needs to be.

' date=, on 12 July 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Well, duh, because they edited porn out.

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You can question what we do without being blatantly provocative. I don't see how dondon's post warrants your reaction in any way. I don't even see how it's relevant, considering it's stated in the rules that the Ticket system is where people are supposed to make such complaints, not forum posts.

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I'm pretty sure no mod on this forum deletes posts because they "don't like them."

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lol

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If there's a legitimate reason that my post was unapproved in this thread, I'd like to know what it is? It should be a few posts in, maybe post 4 or 5.

I'm not seeing any unapproved post there at all and in the few times I've looked there, the only post I've seen from you is the one currently visible. Maybe you goofed on this one?

I can't speak for any other moderator, but I try to always utilize the "Contact Member: Email / PM" box at the bottom of the warn adjustment. 9 times out of 10, I never get a reply to these PMs, so it's hard on our end as well to know if people are properly reading them, but I do see and understand your valid concern, especially in the case of a ban or suspension where loss of access to the forums as a whole without warning would be cause for serious alarm.

Also, again speaking solely for myself, the majority of times I unapprove a post, it is because some user has reported it, and it is a simple and effective means of handling the problem before it has a chance to develop into a larger issue, or it is a blatant case of internet transfer hiccups and unintentional double posting.

I have no idea if this is the post you were worried about having been deleted, but this is an example of what an unapproved post will look like. It's still there alive and kicking.

That particular example was from the Zombie Apocalypse thread in Hacking, and a clear violation of Section 2.2 "Do not make one-line posts, unless it adds something new or interesting to a discussion. In other words, do not spam."

Could there have been other methods of correctional action? Sure. Was there anything wrong with hiding/deleting it? Not really, IMO. Pruning spam to the point where it's invisible makes derailment based on said spam not only difficult, but pretty much impossible. Would moderator edits saying "User was warned for this post" have similar deterrent effects? I'm not sure I care to speculate.

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This is worse. Now I know I am literally going insane with paranoia.

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In my book, that makes you pretty awesome.

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Makes sense. And in the case of the post you linked, I don't mind that. It was kinda R-tarded anyway. It's funny how at 90% warn I still made a stupid one liner which could have been the post that got me banned.

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Yeah, I agree.

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Not on that post you specifically linked (because it was pretty retarded), but on something like, say, an offtopic post(s), then I'd say yes it might help. At the least, a small notification might be nice, just so someone knows it was wrong, but maybe I'm asking too much.


Anyway, insightful discussion, sorry if I sound(ed) like an ass at any point.

And also, if you prune a bunch of spam posts and don't want to notify individual users (who would?), you could always post in the topic and say you pruned spam, and please keep it on topic in the future. I think you guys already do that anyway though.

First of all, I can personally see who was contacted for what issue, and I can read your PMs when it happened even if they have been deleted. You were contacted for four of the issues in your warn history; two of them was me explaining what happened with the lemonparty thing and then telling you how it was going to be dealt with. You were also contacted by Sirius for your spam posts and told in the thread by Fox to stop for her flaming/trolling warn. Almost all of your warns are for spam, are you really demanding that we PM you every time and tell you that you spammed and it's wrong? Not only can you see that in your warn history, but we shouldn't have to tell you more than once.

Sirius, Balcerzak and I have a nearly 100% contact to warn ratio. Musashi's is lower because he has banned a lot of dummy accounts and there is no point in contacting them. I know for a fact that he almost always contacts people for legitimate warns. Fox's is low, but I suppose she expects people to actually check their warn history. Either way, she usually posts in the threads themselves, and I'm sure she'll be contacting members from now on now that she knows they aren't automatically messaged.

Sending out e-mails isn't something I do often, most members sign up with dummy email accounts or junk accounts. Frankly, if someone gets banned, I don't care enough to contact them through e-mail, and I don't blame Shuuda for not contacting you when he banned you. He made a mistake in not contacting you for the first warn, however.

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As for posts being unapproved, it is necessary and far more convenient and fair than any other method. Not doing that just opens a far more ridiculous door of bullshit with users claiming we are editing their posts out of abuse, and we can't even prove that we didn't because the original content is lost. Users claiming we are abusing them by unapproving their posts? Re-approve with no edit mark, there's all the proof needed and it is indisputable because it is their own original post. Not only this, but editing posts has an inherent flaw to it: users are going to feel obligated to defend their post to people watching, which will result in either further thread derailment or the user getting warned again for something that didn't need to happen. I've seen it on plenty of other forums who opt to do this instead of making offending posts invisible.

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Uh, maybe his post about his posts being deleted was removed because he was posting in the ROMHACKING section. See, our forum has basic cleanliness guidelines. Complaints about staff operations do not belong in a forum completely unrelated to it. We have a forum for that, it's called the ticket system. And Dondon is far from stupid; he recognized he made a mistake and made a ticket about it, where it was discussed.

This ticket would be completely void of intelligent discussion if my moderators responded to you the way you began talking to them. With that in mind, next time you have something you want to discuss with us, think it through and formulate a post and argument for your cause that will not be riddled with assumptions and groundless accusations that you've decided are fact all on your own. Chances are you're just going to end up apologizing again.

Thanks for the ticket.

This post has been edited by Tangerine: Yesterday, 10:46 AM

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I haven't deleted any PM's on this site since I got here (Because you guys are sensible enough to give a 10,000 PM limit <3) but of those four issues you listed, two were initiated by me (like PMing you and/or I think Sirius.) and the other two I can't seem to find, but I'm pretty sure I didn't delete them so maybe I'm missing them. Anyway, all I wanted to do was see if you guys had an automatic pm system going on (When I modded SoS, there was just a checkbox to send an auto-PM, which takes a split second to click, dunno how you guys have it set up here) and if you were using it. And then, it uns out it may not be working, so I'm glad I brought it to your attention. :)

I will say though, that I go to a lot of lax forums and I'm not really used to the stricter ruleset here. Most of the other forums I go to don't instawarn people for every little breaking of the rules, they use discretion and warn them for asinine posts, flamey posts, trolly posts, and things like that. Personally I always liked Norodo's rules (rule 1. Don't be a dick lol) because they basically stated the obvious, we're all friends, and we just hate annoying people and/or dicks. But then again, SoS is dead and SF, so what do I know :P


And to be fair about my spam, 70% of my posts are a paragraph or longer, and some posts, especially those in my game thread or in mature discussion are exceedingly big. It's not like Camtech who constantly fires off one liners and insults, I spam a little now and then because after posting lots of non-spam, sometimes I feel I have the right to be a little spammy. Maybe that's wrong but lord I don't think it's that bad.

' date=, on 13 July 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

If we were as strict as you believe, you wouldn't even have an account to be posting this message on. You broke two rules that are regularly instant bans (posting pornographic content and alt accounts), and I got you out of it both times. We've also avoided warning you for some of your recent spam because your next warn is going to get you banned for real this time.

SF is far bigger and more active than any FE website before it, as a result we have a lot more members that we need to keep in check. If we did not enforce basic rules the forum would go to hell, and perhaps we would be as dead as our former competitors who are posthumously "credited" for being lax. We are the home of the Western FE fanbase; we have a standard to set within the fandom as the leading resource and community. When people look for an FE community, they find Serenes Forest. Why would anyone want them to see spam and garbage all over the place, and people arguing and causing trouble? That's not healthy, and it won't attract new players and members.

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<3

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Welp, keep doing what you do~