13:57 : What's the difference between Round 2 & 3? 13:57 : the vulture/ JUMPER 13:57 : Ridorii/ S.S 13:57 : ...they're not similar? 13:58 : are you trolling me? 13:58 : no, i'll agree Ridorii is harder than S.S, and it's the only map there? 13:59 : ??????? 13:59 : you seriously have no clue 13:59 : well just tell me your view 13:59 : the vulture is an overall liked map 13:59 : jumper is a hated map 13:59 : ridorii is a jump map 13:59 : ss is a stream map 13:59 : i only mean difficulty 13:59 : nothing else 13:59 : didn't say it's about type 14:00 : it's just that 14:00 : jumper is so shitty that it just can't be compared to the vulture 14:00 : ss and ridorii are alike in difficulty 14:00 : then what's wrong with Round 3's balance as you said in thread 14:01 : they're in similar range of difficulty level..? 14:01 : theme of laura is a joke 14:01 : alazy diff of higan retour is a joke 14:02 : hinarin's relation of misfortune isn't really comparable to any of the round 2 maps 14:02 : for higan it's because Lunatic has been used in owc1 14:02 : so don't pick it 14:02 : Theme of Laura... what's wrong? 14:02 : reunion is not comparable to any map 14:02 : Mendes? lol 14:03 : we're talking 2nd round 14:03 : 1st round was a complete failure 14:03 : yep, ok 14:03 : unhappy refrain I'll keep my comments 14:03 : kusagaredou to chocolate is much harder than any round 2 map 14:03 : and again 14:03 : it's not about each map 14:03 : it's about the balance they create 14:04 : 2nd round was pretty much easy maps 14:04 : now you put some maps like 2nd round, some easier maps and some harder maps 14:04 : you'll notice it because I'll miss much more in this round 14:04 : and I don't mind it 14:04 : but there's no balance 14:05 : but listen to me, they're made in the same way as round 2 14:05 : just because the easier maps/harder maps could be ignored in round 2 or 14:05 : they just stand out in round 3 14:06 : look 14:06 : as a player 14:06 : I count 10 maps in round 2 that are easy 14:07 : you don't need to list them, just continue 14:07 : now I count 7 14:07 : I won't 14:07 : 3 more hard maps is a lot 14:07 : and as gladi said 14:07 : this is only the groupstage 14:07 : this round IS a bit hard than round 2, i planned to do that since some walk overs happen 14:08 : you didn't need to pick harder maps in the groupstage 14:08 : and if you did 14:08 : all maps should be harder 14:08 : that's what we're talking about when we say balance 14:08 : emm, that's still different defination of balance 14:08 : what i talked with farto from the very beginning 14:08 : is to keep an average level could be appreciated for the most countries 14:09 : some easier maps and some harder maps 14:09 : and gladi and I agree with that 14:09 : that's why I say round 2 is more balanced 14:09 : because the average level isn't very hard 14:09 : now in round 3 it is harder 14:09 : it should be imo...? some countries leaves (Vietnam, Bulgaria) 14:10 : no 14:10 : this is still the groupstage 14:10 : and IF you want to increase the overal difficulty 14:10 : it should be increased overall 14:10 : when you pick theme of laura 14:10 : or higan retour alazy 14:10 : you're not increasing it 14:10 : they're there as the "easier" maps 14:10 : i tried to increase the average 14:10 : you're not following 14:10 : only a bit 14:11 : can we say the easier maps for round 2 were 14:11 : refrain of the lovely 14:11 : and flutter girl? 14:11 : what 14:11 : for example? 14:11 : i could agree with flutter girl 14:11 : refrain of the lovely is easy because it's drilled by everyone 14:11 : not really, it shows up in matches a lot and people usually miss 14:12 : not like U235 in round 1 14:12 : U235 was only picked because it has AR9 14:12 : and it was the only AR9 map 14:12 : continue 14:12 : people don't want to play AR8 maps 14:12 : theme of laura 14:12 : is easier than any of the round 2 maps 14:12 : and you're trying to increase overall difficulty 14:12 : Fuushi Kaden? 14:12 : JUMPER? 14:12 : they're harder 14:13 : fuushi kaden has oldschool spacing 14:13 : jumper has low AR and jumps which is annoying 14:13 : theme of laura is only a "cool" map 14:13 : also 14:13 : vulture map is not very hard 14:13 : the quality (juged by us) is an important part in the map choosing, just saying 14:14 : yeah but that's where you fail 14:14 : also in the plan, the vulture is the easiest in this round 14:14 : mappers regard some things as quality 14:14 : and players regard others thing as quality 14:14 : we don't regard jumper as quality 14:14 : we don't regard jutenija as quality 14:14 : we don't regard badbye as quality 14:14 : you can't look at it from our viewpoint but I can look at it from your viewpoint 14:15 : you could have a try, the vulture is there also mostly because it's cool 14:15 : that's my point 14:15 : you're picking cool maps 14:15 : you're not picking maps that pro players regard as good 14:16 : but owc is not only about competitive? 14:16 : it is about competitive 14:16 : it's a damn world cup 14:16 : how can you even think that? 14:16 : i'm saying not only 14:16 : the playing part is only competitive 14:17 : it IS a world cup 14:17 *NatsumeRin is listening to (wa. remixed celas - Suishou-Sekai ~Fracture~)[http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28984] 14:17 : just asking, what's your opinion about this 14:17 : soulfear has no creativity left 14:17 : he can only map hard stuff 14:17 : I don't like it yet I play it all the time because it's challenging 14:17 : is it fine for competitive? 14:18 : it is, just not at groupstage level 14:18 : but maps like this probably won't pass 14:18 : it wouldn't be funny to see all vietnam failing this map 14:18 : i hope this could make some sense 14:18 : I don't mind maps like that 14:18 : i know, i mean even in the future stages 14:18 : as I said, I don't like it 14:18 : we're not requesting shit imba hard maps 14:19 : i mean, you don't mind how it looks or how it hears in owc? 14:19 : just how it plays, right? 14:20 : yup 14:20 *Metro is listening to (Niira Etsuko - Shinyaku no Yoru)[http://osu.ppy.sh/s/14714] 14:20 : this looks like shit tbh 14:20 : yet it plays amazingly good 14:20 : this is just shit imo 14:20 : probably to the other staffs 14:20 : because you're mappers 14:20 *Metro is listening to (Ikareru Kin no Shishi - G59)[http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25252] 14:20 : same thing 14:21 : a bit better imo but it's still the same 14:21 : I HATED this map when I was a noob 14:21 : when I could handle it I loved it 14:21 : this is something that you can only understand when you can really play a map 14:21 : Natteke and SapphireGhost are skilled players 14:21 : sapphireghost is 14:21 : great that he joined, I asked him to 14:21 : natteke isn't 14:22 : and ok, Theme of Laura is nominated by Sapphire 14:22 : do you feel it's fun 14:22 : we all agreed that choice 14:22 : no, I feel it has too high AR so that most can't DT it 14:23 : and while I understand the cool mapping I don't like it 14:23 : players and mappers are not that divided i guess? 14:23 : it surprises me that sapphire picked theme of laura 14:23 : but I guess that it's also about the level of your mapping 14:23 : I'm sure val would pick good maps 14:24 : but we're moving away from the point 14:24 : lol yes 14:24 : if most maps would be similar in difficulty to theme of laura 14:24 : I wouldn't mind it 14:25 : and in this point, what you're against is what we're trying to get 14:25 : what gladi is saying 14:25 : diff spread is wider than you expect, i guess 14:25 : maps should be overall of the same difficulty 14:25 : yes 14:26 : diff spread in round 2 was ok for me 14:26 : some shitmaps picked but diff spread was good 14:26 : and we make it to be about that wide 14:26 : of course you do 14:26 : we don't decide the maps, you do 14:27 : lol imo Round 2 & 3 don't have much difference in diff spread, still 14:27 : like you said, some harder maps indeed 14:27 : the problem is that 14:27 : you're comparing SS to ridorii 14:27 : when they're completely different maps 14:27 : but the range didn't change (at least i hope) 14:27 : you tried to replace ss with ridorii and that doesn't work 14:29 : they don't really need to be the same type, just the same level and keep the diff spread in about the same range 14:29 : nonono you don't get it 14:29 : ? 14:29 : SS is a stream map 14:30 : as long as you can keep the speed up you can do it just fine 14:30 : jumps in ridorii are much more missable than SS 14:30 : it is a good map for owc 14:30 : but it's not a good replacement for ss 14:30 : you can replace mendes with reunion 14:30 : because they're kinda the same type 14:31 : no orz, it's not trying to replace 14:31 : but you can't replace a stream map with a jump map 14:31 : just compare 14:31 : seems you misunderstand 14:31 : only level 14:31 : everything has to be compared 14:31 : as gladi said balance between stream and jump maps is important too 14:32 : it's krzy i guess 14:32 : also, it's what i told staffs to choose 14:32 : 1 stream/1 jump/1 whatever you like 14:32 : you're map picking leader 14:33 : if the maps picked aren't balancing 1 stream 1 jump 1 whatever 14:33 : it's your responsibility to ammend it 14:34 : true, but i don't really make something saying the hardest maps must be stream/jump 14:34 : i saw ridorii in the nominations and after discussion it passed 14:34 : i think it's about the same level as S.S so ok 14:34 : it's the hardest map in this round 14:35 : I don't really change it to a stream hard map 14:35 : just balance stream/jump in the list, not adjusting certain maps to decide the easiest/hardest maps' type 14:37 : ridorii is not necesarilly the hardest map in this pool 14:37 : you're forgetting kusagaredou 14:37 : kusaregedou whatever 14:37 : that val mapping style is much harder than SS's 14:37 : and it's not even stream or jumps lol 14:37 : that map is because 14:38 : in Round 2 we got 2 val nominations 14:38 : i just pass that to val himself 14:38 : he said, let's pick S.S in round 2 and leave kusare for the next 14:38 : we followed him 14:38 : lol 14:38 : true story 14:38 : that's retarded 14:38 : that's the problem with the map picking 14:38 : you're trying to satisfy a mapper 14:39 : instead of picking just one and leaving one nomination out 14:39 : no, it's no really difference 14:39 : that's seriously fucked up 14:39 : the only thing i leave for him to decide 14:39 : is the order 14:39 : the 2 maps will be shown in group stage 14:39 : ... 14:39 : if he will decide the order 14:39 : is decided by staffs 14:39 : dou't doubt it 14:39 : then you need to pick maps according to each map 14:39 : not because he decides the order 14:40 : ? 14:40 : kusararar mapping style is much harder than poinsettia's 14:40 : weaker countries can fail it much more than poinsettia or SS 14:40 : but again we're moving away from the topic 14:40 : what I think is 14:40 : in this round 14:40 : you picked some harder maps and some easier maps than round 2 14:41 : and imo the harder maps are indeed harder a bit 14:41 : and the easier maps are easier 14:41 : but no changes for easier mas 14:41 : that's why the balance is broken 14:41 : that's why i think it's no big difference with round 2 lol 14:42 : even if you don't think that the easier maps are easier in round 3 14:42 : you do think the harder maps are harder 14:42 : and just by that you're shifting the balance 14:42 : that's what we're complaining about 14:44 : no...wait 14:46 : 1. then from the beginning, why round 2 is counted as balanced 14:46 : 2. 14:46 : "if a map pool consists of only easy maps or only hard maps, it is likely to benefit the weaker countries and the stronger countries 14:46 : respectively" 14:47 : to me round 2 had all maps of similar difficulty 14:47 : with some hard maps 14:47 : that's why I saw it as balanced 14:48 : in round 2 14:48 : Round 3 is still kinda that? only the number of "harder maps" increased a bit? 14:48 : salvage was supposed to play all maps except for only 2 and the tiebreaker 14:48 : in round 3 he won't play all maps 14:48 : he's our player for easy maps 14:48 : no 14:48 : there's like 9 hard maps 14:49 : I said 7 I know but 2 more aren't very easy 14:50 : only, ONLY easy maps in this round are theme of laura, far east nightbird, higan retour, so fabulous and the vulture 14:50 : round 2: refrain, selfish, vanessa, thanks for nothing, netoge, jutenija, jumper, flutter girl, russian snowy dance 14:50 : it is a hell lot different 14:52 : reunion, unhappy refrain, hinarin, gensou kidan 14:52 : they're count as hard? 14:52 : they're not counted as easy 14:52 : gensou kidan has 1/3 14:52 : hinarin has mafia's mapping which isn't very easy 14:52 : unhappy refrain no comments 14:53 : lol 14:53 : reunion is harder than mendes btw 14:53 : mendes wasn't an easy map in round 1 14:53 : but compared to the easy list you give for round 2? 14:53 : yep 14:53 : they're all harder 14:53 : that's why I didn't include them 14:53 : they're all maps I can miss anytime 14:53 : all the other maps I listed I usually FC'd them in 1 play 14:54 : they're also maps Salvage has no problems FC'ing 14:54 : and he's a weak player 14:54 : for round 3 he can play 5, or 0 as you said? 14:55 : those 5 I listed he can play them like a boss 14:55 : he'll play more because ever17 sucks for some kind of maps 14:55 : but I'd rather have another me for them :) 14:56 : emmm, but in this way, did it just proves the diff level went up (average)? 14:56 : just put if it's good thing aside, and the balance is not that brok? 14:57 : the diff level went up but not in average 14:57 : as I said 14:57 : easier maps this round are easier than 2nd round 14:57 : but you don't agree 14:58 : lol 14:58 : :) 14:58 : well ok, things is: i got what you said, you got mine too 14:58 : we just can't agree with each other at a point 14:58 : meh. 14:59 : yeah but even if easier maps this round are of the same level as you say 14:59 : that still breaks the balance 14:59 : they should be a tad harder to be balanced with the rest of the set 14:59 : also 14:59 : you used a certain level in round 2 14:59 : because you're making it for all teams 15:00 : but now that those teams quit without even playing you just raise it 15:00 : ....because i mean to extend it a bit (maybe as you said, i should make the easiest maps harder) 15:00 : even though we're in the same stage 15:00 : this talk is now worthless because there won't be another round in groupstage 15:00 : but level shouldn't have gone up 15:00 : it should've been consistant 15:01 : Maybe, i know what you mean here, just want to push it forward a bit 15:01 : you want to push it a bit 15:01 : but you want to satisfy all countries 15:01 : those 2 things aren't compatible 15:01 : but again, this is the last round of groupstage 15:01 : well, as they quit i don't need to satisfy them...it's my thought 15:02 : I know you're mad at them, I'm too 15:02 : but they all didn't quit 15:02 : and again 15:02 : level in groupstage should've been the same throughout all round 15:02 : s 15:02 : well, difficulty will continue to increase in the elimination 15:03 : maybe you're right here, but just not my thinking 15:03 : and that's why I didn't go to the thread to talk about it 15:03 : because I don't really care 15:03 : but since you asked, I answered, that's all 15:04 : thanks for the talk anyway 15:05 : np 15:05 : go to sleep 15:05 : 2 am now orz 15:05 : night 15:05 : night